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"Worst left tackle situation in the NFL"

Discussion in 'Chargers Fan Forum' started by Blue Bolt, May 7, 2013.

  1. Blue Bolt

    Blue Bolt Persona Non Grata

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    And yet, you again failed to recognize a joke.
     
  2. Bolts4lyfe

    Bolts4lyfe BoltTalker

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    Max Starks left SD without a contract, said the Chargers didn't offer a contract to him yet but both sides had a very good meeting, said they'll talk it over and get back to him in a couple days, said he'd be given the opportunity to compete. Starks also says if the deal he is offered is close or fair to what he has he will except the deal.

    I think just having him on the roster regardless of starter or back up will be great for competition.

    Also would like to mention according to an article on " Bolts From the Blue" with stats provided from "Football outsiders" it shows that Rivers struggles weren't nessesarily from a poor O line or a poor run game but actually from poor WR play.

    Fix the Offensive Line

    This has by far been the most popular suggestion. Rivers can't get comfortable in the pocket, and therefore is rushing his throws. A man with only one eye could see that Rivers had little trust for his Offensive Line.
    To test this theory, we'll use some stats from the wonderful folks at Football Outsiders. We will use DVOA to measure Rivers per-play average, and Adjusted Sack Rate (ASR) to measure how well the line performed protecting its quarterback.

    From 2007 to 2011, the Chargers Offensive Line seemed to bounce back–and–forth between "average" and "pretty good" before dropping to "horrid beyond all reason" in 2012. Before we get too excited about that, a few things need to be pointed out.
    First, using simple linear regression there isn't a whole lot here with a correlation coefficient of -0.53. That isn't too terrible, so there is something here.
    It should also be noted that the team that finished 31st in ASR was the Green Bay Packers. Despite having an Offensive Line nearly as terrible as the Chargers, Aaron Rodgers managed to have a DVOA of 22.3%, good for 4th in the league.
    Still, Rivers has had good years behind a below–average line before. Improving the Offensive Line would probably help, but it isn't going to get Rivers back the way he was. There is more here.


    Fix the Run Game

    Rivers will do better if the running game can take some of the heat off. A solid running game will keep the opposing defense honest, and give Rivers more space downfield to find an open receiver.
    To test this, we will again use Rivers' yearly DVOA, and compare to the Chargers rushing DVOA.


    Wow, between the decline of LaDainian Tomlinson and Norv Turner being Norv Turner, the Chargers once–formidable rushing attacked has truly not been a threat. In fact, it has consistenly not been a threat, with a correlation with Rivers' DVOA of -0.04. There is no pattern there. The Bolts ability to run the ball has had nothing to do with how well or poor Rivers performs over the course of his career.
    Although I'd buy that the theory might hold in regards specifically to 2007, which was the last of Tomlinson's exceptional years. Having help from a dominant player leads to the last of our theories…

    Find a Dominant Receiver

    Rivers' three best seasons came from Vincent Jackson's best two–year run with the Chargers (2008-2009) and the year Antonio Gates was absolutely beyond dominant for the first 10 games of the season. Perhaps having a dominant target (or targets) is just what is needed to get Rivers back to form.
    Once again, we'll be using Philip Rivers' DVOA. This time instead of using a rate stat, we'll be looking at the DYAR total for the top Chargers receiver each season.
    This distribution gives the best correlation yet, with a correlation coefficient of 0.63, so there may be something here. But this variable could simply be dependent on Rivers' play. What we are really interested in is the distribution of yardage. Let's take a look to see if results continue to hold up.
    In the table below, we will look at the percentage of Rivers passing yards the top 3 receivers hauled in over the course of the season, and compare that to Rivers' DVOA.

    Well, that was unexpected. Perhaps the problem the Chargers have is not that they do not have a top guy, but that they don't have a 1-2 punch?
    One problem with looking into this is that 2010 was a very odd year for pass distribution when looked at as a whole season. Vincent Jackson held out the first two thirds of the season, and there was a ridiculous number of injuries to the receiving corps. Seven data points is not a whole lot to go on, and football is rarely very clean statistically. One strange year can throw off the whole analysis when looking at an issue with this kind of focus.
    It doesn't take a genius to realize that Vincent Jackson's departure left a hole in the offense. Antonio Gates cannot fill that role any longer, and the Chargers struggled last season to find someone to fill that role.


    Conclusions

    There seems to be something behind the Offensive Line being behind some of Philip Rivers' issues. However, I have trouble believing that it is the entire reason. There plenty of examples of quarterbacks playing well behind poor Offensive Lines. Do they play better behind good ones? Undoubtedly. But given the variation of the Offensive Line play over the years, it is hard to believe that Rivers' dropoff in play is simply due to a poor line.
    The run game appears to not be a factor in the quality of Rivers' play. The quality of the receivers, however, is ambiguous. Results seem to indicate that having one or two solid receivers, rather than trying to replace one with a mediocre group of them (Vincent Jackson for Meachem and Royal) is the better way to go.
    Finally, there is Philip himself. Perhaps these previous suggestions have helped or hindered him, but I believe that the drop in his play rests with him. Rivers needs to do better, period. I will admit that I am not optimistic about him returning to his once-dominant top 3 form. I do believe that he can return to being a serviceable top-10 quarterback. Improving the line and giving him better targets will help with that. But I believe that the bulk of the work on improving rests with him.

    Im having troubles posting the stats, to see them click here

    http://www.boltsfromtheblue.com/201...rivers-how-the-chargers-can-fix-their-star-qb
     
  3. matilack

    matilack #therealagent47

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    Well you have only yourself to blame for that.:whistling:
     
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  4. HollywoodLeo

    HollywoodLeo Well-Known Member

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    I've never presumed Dunlap to be the master plan.

    Sometimes plans simply don't come into fruition and you have to settle for what you can get....and, in our case, that wound up being Dunlap.
     
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  5. Lance19

    Lance19 BoltTalker

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    Yes, I'm frequently guilty of mocking faux-expertise relentlessly trotted out by posters who evidently
    don't really know a West Coast Offense from a West Coast Chopper...but this time
    I must admit that, yes, "...having Carlos Dunlap as your LT is usually a bad thing."
     
  6. matilack

    matilack #therealagent47

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    Well we sure settled alright.

    And I was just speaking to the board in general, not anyone individually. We've both seen people overrate and defend bad players based simply on the fact that the GM thought he was worth bringing in.
     
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  7. Dublin Bolt

    Dublin Bolt BoltTalker

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    Listened to the Starks interview on 1090. Sounds like a real smart guy. He is familiar with the O and terminology Whiz runs, seems like a great fit.
     
  8. Ikeman83

    Ikeman83 Werter Pöbel

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    Except that English "stepping up" wouldn't just be replacing Barnes, but Philips as well.
     
  9. CoronaDoug

    CoronaDoug Well-Known Member

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    Wouldn't be surprised if he is looking for something closer to Orlando.

    http://maxstarkspubcrawl-rss.eventbrite.com/
     
  10. Blue Bolt

    Blue Bolt Persona Non Grata

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    No, that's Ingram's job...... it's time to take the training wheels off and start the guy. English is a rotational player..... the same as Barnes was.
     
  11. Blue Bolt

    Blue Bolt Persona Non Grata

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    His family is from that area, but that's not where he lives......
     
  12. Ikeman83

    Ikeman83 Werter Pöbel

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    That would mean that Ingram is being expected to replace SP's production, and that English is being expected to produce at his previous level, while also providing Ingram and Barnes's previous production.

    Framing it as "Stepping up for English means getting 3.5 sacks" is somewhat misleading.
     
  13. Blue Bolt

    Blue Bolt Persona Non Grata

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    Max Starks still in mix for Chargers
    By Michael Gehlken9:34 A.M.MAY 10, 2013

    Max Starks is out of town but not out of mind.

    The free agent left tackle had what people familiar with the situation have described as a positive Wednesday visit with the Chargers. Although no deal had been reached as of Friday morning, Starks is still considered in the mix for San Diego.

    In 2012, the 31-year-old started all 16 games at left tackle for the Steelers.

    He projects as the Chargers' starting left tackle if he was to join the team.

    King Dunlap, 27, is the top option on the current roster. Added competition would be nothing to irk Dunlap, a source close to the veteran said this week, as the former Eagle was not promised anything upon signing a two-year contract in March.

    Regardless of what may occur with Starks, the Chargers figure to have more experience at left tackle this year than last. Michael Harris, as an undrafted rookie, and Kevin Haslam combined for 12 left-tackle starts in 2012. They previously had four offensive snaps of NFL regular-season experience between them.

    Both remain on the roster after taking a combined 896 reps at left and right tackle in 2012.

    Starks spent the first nine seasons of his career in Pittsburgh, starting 96 of the 123 games in which he was active.
     
  14. Blue Bolt

    Blue Bolt Persona Non Grata

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    You're the one who "framed" it that way, not me. :laugh:

    The facts are simple....... Philips was a starter. That's now going to be Ingram's job. English was a rotational backup. That's still going to be his role. Our new draft pick, Tourek Williams will be in the mix as well. We also have some other camp bodies at OLB...... one may impress enough to stick around.
     
  15. Ikeman83

    Ikeman83 Werter Pöbel

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    I certainly did not. Now, if only we knew who had posted this...

     
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  16. Blue Bolt

    Blue Bolt Persona Non Grata

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    Are you having reading difficulties, or do you just have trouble understanding humor, like Matty? :rolleyes:

    My point was simple...... we didn't lose a starter, just a situational/rotational player. Barnes didn't put up great stats last year. In fact, if you look at his career, 2011 was an anomaly. The guy has only had one year of double digit sacks. He's had a couple seasons with none. 23.5 sacks in his career, so that 11 we had in 2011 was nearly half his career total.

    I fail to see how it would be so difficult to replace his production with the other players we have.
     
  17. AnteaterCharger

    AnteaterCharger Calibrating Bolttalk, Podcast by Podcast Staff Member Super Moderator Podcaster

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    Then that is because Harris has actually earned it as opposed to desperate circumstances. And after a year maybe he's ready to steep up and be a starter. Either way the team has options and won't be stuck in a desperate circumstance out of sheer bad luck.

    And yeah I agree Gaither had finally turned it all around and was supposed to step up and be a real player. Oops
     
  18. Ikeman83

    Ikeman83 Werter Pöbel

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    Because we're not just replacing his production, and because the players we have (other than Ingram) have not shown any potential to be able to exceed their own production at any time, ever.
     
  19. Blue Bolt

    Blue Bolt Persona Non Grata

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    Barnes didn't produce much last season....... or hadn't you noticed? There's not that much to replace. The guy had one great year....... the rest, nothing to make a big deal about.

    Ingram has to fill Phillips' shoes, who made a much bigger contribution than Barnes. A situational pass rusher is a little easier to find, than a starting OLB.
     
  20. Bolts4lyfe

    Bolts4lyfe BoltTalker

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    I love how the worst tackle thread veered off into the worst pass rushing thread.

    Oh F$%k it I'm going to do it.


    [​IMG]
     
  21. Blue Bolt

    Blue Bolt Persona Non Grata

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    Indeed you did. ;)
     
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